Comments for Getting It at http://www.theind.com , comment 1 to 28 out of 20 comments http://www.theind.com Wed, 08 Feb 2012 21:13:43 +0100 FeedCreator 1.7.3 http://www.theind.com/re/6600-getting-it#comment-9296 Sorry I missed all the comments but I had to leave for a long vacation and didn't get a chance to reply - not that anyone will probably see this but the fallacy in ragin's Oil Company/Crawfish Business argument is that those are pure businesses that already exist. The basis is not simply "can government make money." I don't like that argument and that is why I was personally against the LUS Fiber project. I am sure there are some tourists who will come because of the arts but that impact is small compared to the impact of attracting businesses in other sectors because of the fact that Lafayette has invested in the arts which makes this area such a great place once the work day is done. All the best, Soop - Soop Wed, 04 Aug 2010 14:01:45 +0100 http://www.theind.com/re/6600-getting-it#comment-9166 :) I could go on and on. 2-3 a day for the next week at least :) - ragin_cajun Tue, 27 Jul 2010 16:32:33 +0100 http://www.theind.com/re/6600-getting-it#comment-9165 You're obsessing, ragin_cajun. Step away from the ledge! - Walter Pierce Tue, 27 Jul 2010 14:39:40 +0100 http://www.theind.com/re/6600-getting-it#comment-9164 How bout crawfishing? profitable and cultural. LCG should "invest" tax dollars into a "sustainable" crawfish farm, sell the crawfish, or better yet give it away at Festival International. The tourism boost! The sustainability angle ties in with the Chamber's effort to lobby for green energy. Then the administration could FORCE UL to graduate engineering talent for the crawfish farm. So LCG is now making money, attracting tourists, preserving the history and culture of crawfish farming in Acadiana, educating "next generation engineers" for the new green energy economy, and saving the planet! This is even better than the "digital bayou"! I think I'm starting to "get it" now. :) - ragin_cajun Tue, 27 Jul 2010 14:34:42 +0100 http://www.theind.com/re/6600-getting-it#comment-9154 Oil exploration has been an integral part of Cajun Culture for well over 60 years, now. But, oil and gas exploration is on the decline here in South Louisiana. I think that in order to help preserve our unique "cajun culture" in Lafayette, that city-parish government needs to spend $515,000 per year to fund a city oil company. We all know that oil and gas can be very profitable, and rig hands spend money in restaurants and hotels, so this would be a "Pretty damned good investment if you ask me."...or Edmund Burke...or Joey Durel. And, although it is government subsidized, don't worry because the Lafayette Oil company would be self-sufficient. And if you don't support this, you're a simpleton and you just don't "get it". - ragin_cajun Tue, 27 Jul 2010 07:28:42 +0100 http://www.theind.com/re/6600-getting-it#comment-9149 I was almost through with this whole stupid debate, but I just can't let that remark go. Resident-- You are incorrect that I have committed the "equivocation fallacy". My logic is sound. I've looked it up, and the equivocation fallacy is not what you state, and does not apply to my arguments against arts center funding. (I've posted links at the end) Including local tax in my total tax burden is completely logical. Limits are limits, and small transgressions are still transgressions. You're saying that I should turn a blind eye to small taxes and small amounts of govt. spending, but only rail against big taxes and spending amounts? That is certainly fallacious, is it not? "I know this is gonna hurt...but just a little" :) "Don't worry about the bleeding, it's just a little blood" :) I am a slave to the government, based on the amount of taxes I pay and the amount of time I spend earning to pay those taxes, but it's OK, because LCG is just a tiny little shackle in the chain? "The yoke is so light, how dare you protest?" Is that it? If you can't consistently apply your philosophy, or beliefs, then why bother having them at all? Instead of trying, UNSUCCESSFULLY, to poke holes in my logic, why don't you answer the questions that I pose that would advance the debate?--what current spending would you cut to have this arts funding? Not one of you will answer that. And why should we fund arts organizations in 8 other parishes? No one will address that, either. What is too much? Name something that you think LCG CAN'T do? Where would YOU draw the line? None of you has answered that, either. And the reason why is because all of you supposed Conservatives out there have dumped your morals at the door of the Arts Center. Whatever political beliefs you have to abandon to have this one inexpensive little treat, so be it--"we need culture". And you'd do it if your were US Senators, too. And that's why this country is where it is today--you have no code that you wouldn't abandon for the right earmark. You're as much a part of the problem as the fiends in Washington you all probably moan about at your Tea Parties. You're all in on it. So when this passes the Council, what happens if a councilman that was in favor of this runs for Congress? would you vote for him? Would you believe him when he campaigns on fiscal responsibility in Washington after voting for something like this? Believe that he'll go to the mat in Washington to cut "arts funding" at the federal level when he voted for this at the local level? Or will you say, "he may be a welfare state, big government, tax the rich con-man, but at least he's ours!" Will you vote for him because he "brings home the bacon"? Well, make no mistake, if that comes to pass, I for one will be there to remind the voters of these candidates' records. No councilman who votes for this will be able to run as a "fiscal conservative", or to talk about the "madness in Washington" after having instituted the exact same kind of madness in my hometown. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equivocation http://www.fallacyfiles.org/equivoqu.html - ragin_cajun Mon, 26 Jul 2010 17:01:01 +0100 http://www.theind.com/re/6600-getting-it#comment-9142 I'm with you, Walt, and I think most people are too. Lafayette would not be the place it is now without the local government investment in arts and culture. Fortunately there is a deep well of arts and culture in Acadiana to tap. At $2.34 per capita (what time frame, by the way?), it doesn't seem like a notorious drain on our paychecks. ragin_cajun likes the equivocation fallacy, raging against the sum total of taxes paid in an effort to criticize this particular bit of tax. Trying to apply the "big government is bad, mmkay" mantra to local initiatives is not a persuasive argument. I believe the federal income tax should be abolished and big spending cuts should be enacted on the welfare-warfare state, but I am 100% behind local funding for arts and culture. - Resident Mon, 26 Jul 2010 13:14:44 +0100 http://www.theind.com/re/6600-getting-it#comment-9136 Nigel-- You should read Edmund Burke, too then. You think Edmund Burke would have been in favor of government "investment" in an Arts Center, a block party, charity organizations, and arts organizations outside of its borders? I don't. If I'm wrong about Edmund Burke, then show me. Maybe Burke was a left-wing collectivist who championed the cause of government involvement in free markets, too. I don't think he was, but if I'm wrong, then show me. You're a Conservative, huh? Can you explain what you mean by that? Let's leave Conservatism out of this. Can you explain what you think is the appropriate role of governement in our local economy? Can you give an example of something, anything, that LCG could do that you would say is outside of its scope of authority? Or can LCG do anything at all so long as it's a "pretty damn good investment"? And is art really a good investment? I can think of better investments with a higher return and much lower risk. Restaurants are an OK investment, and I hear ALOT of people say they come to South Louisiana for the food. So would you support a move by Durel and the Council to use tax dollars to subsidize "cajun restaurants" in the downtown area, and then JUST A FEW "cajun restaurants" in the 8 parish Acadiana area as well? Why stop at "arts", and "music"? Food is a HUGE part of "cajun culture". So LCG needs to support our local cajun restaurants with direct subsidies, and LCG needs to fund a new "Cajun Food Center". LCG needs to own and operate 2-3 Cajun Restaurants in the downtown area. Would THAT be a "Pretty damned good investment" if I asked you....or Edmund Burke? - ragin_cajun Mon, 26 Jul 2010 09:40:59 +0100 http://www.theind.com/re/6600-getting-it#comment-9129 I'm a conservative who knows that sometimes you need to spend money to make money. The arts attract a lot of positive attention and tourism dollars to this area. I'm not so partisan that I'm going to advocate a bread and water diet to save city money; where's the return? Nobody goes to Paris to see the infrastructure and public workers. They go to see the Louvre, the Eiffel Tower, the Arc de Triomphe--all structures that wouldn't have been built if the only aim was streamlining expenditures. Pretty damned good investment if you ask me. Or Edmund Burke. - Nigel Sun, 25 Jul 2010 13:57:56 +0100 http://www.theind.com/re/6600-getting-it#comment-9124 Walter-- " grants the AcA distributes in the eight-parish Acadiana area " -- How can anyone POSSIBLY defend Lafayette City-Parish tax dollars going to fund something outside the City-Parish? Can you not at least agree THAT is wrong? Is that even legal? - ragin_cajun Sat, 24 Jul 2010 05:20:06 +0100 http://www.theind.com/re/6600-getting-it#comment-9117 Who cares? I just want everyone to vote NO on the next tax increase that the school board is planning. What say you Tea Party of Lafayette? - The Original Northsidian Fri, 23 Jul 2010 18:52:06 +0100 http://www.theind.com/re/6600-getting-it#comment-9113 NORTHSIDIAN, Few if any of the grants the AcA distributes in the eight-parish Acadiana area go to affluent areas like River Ranch. Many of them go to Boys and Girls Clubs and Head Start agencies in economically depressed areas. It's about spreading art and culture far and wide, not consolidating it in the hands of the elite. - Walter Pierce Fri, 23 Jul 2010 15:57:56 +0100 http://www.theind.com/re/6600-getting-it#comment-9112 I have always remained on the side of the have-nots, mainly because i started there, along with quite a few of my present friends ! I REMAIN A HUGE FAN OF A NEWSPAPER WHO REMAINS NEUTRAL, AND THAT IS REALLY ANOTHER OF YOUR STRONG POINTS. YOU " REPORT THE NEWS...LIKE ,WHATS HAPPENING ! UNLIKE THE DUREL KISSING "LAF. DAILY RAG. I HAVE A HUGE DISLIKE FOR A COMMUNITY THAT DOES NOT PROVIDE A "TENNIS NET ON A CITY PARK PLAYROUND IN A LOW-INCOME AREA, AND / OR A DAMN NET ON A BASKETBALL GOAL IN THE SAME PLAYGROUND.............. I know these children shoved aside with their gameball should be gratefull to have a basketball court, I EXPLAINED TO THEM,THEY SHOULD be grateful !!! I, MEAN THINK HOW MUCH MORE EXCITING IT IS TO HOLLER "SWOOOOOSH WHEN THE BALL GOES THRU THE HOOP, I SAID, "LISTEN THE KIDS IN RIVER RANCH DON'T GET TO HOLLER SWOOOOOSH ! YOU GET MY DRIFT, PALS ? I'M SORRY WALTER, BUT HOW CAN I CONTRIBUTE TO A SCENARIO WHICH SHOULD REMAIN IN THE "BF BIN WITH THE OTHER JOEY DUREL KISSIN BACKSIDE AMENTITIES FOR HIS WELL-TO-DO CRONYS, AND HIS WELL-TO-DO CRONYS NEIGHBORHOODS Those who get are those who give, PADDING THE POLITICO'S POCKETS ! - NORTHSIDIAN SHOTGUN Fri, 23 Jul 2010 15:28:28 +0100 http://www.theind.com/re/6600-getting-it#comment-9098 written by Soop "To Dot -- if the ultimate justification of spending government funds is it must benefit "me" personally, then why pave Gloria Switch Road since I never use it?" ----------------------------- Please note, my previous comment to Walter "Roads, police, courts, are reasonable roles for government but the arts are not." You need to pay attention, Soop. There are plenty things for government to do. The problem is government, the more the government does, the worst things become. California is a excellent example of government run a muck. In California, bureaucrats are the aristocracy, and labor unions their handmaidens. Of course we have our own in Louisiana, just look at Sally, the unlamented head of Education. She was a vampire sucking the blood of taxpayers. - Dot Organism Fri, 23 Jul 2010 12:17:37 +0100 http://www.theind.com/re/6600-getting-it#comment-9094 Soop-- So you dodge the meat of my argument, and nibble at the edges. "you want to impose an anti-federal spending template onto local government " Yeah, I heard Don Bertrand throw that out in the City Council meeting, too. This "madness in Washington" caused opposition to NGO funding, he said. Same faulty line of reasoning. Always some red herring.... "heart of that philosophy " I've already described my philosophy. http://theind.com/news/6589-aca-jodu-unveil-funding-model-for-arts-center " I don't see how you jump from....." What I meant was this. You defend the Arts Center as some kind of indirect economic stimulus, claiming it will draw business. I retort that if we seek to encourage business in Lafayette, it would be far more effective and appropriate for the Administration to cut taxes and streamline permitting and licensing. As for all this "we conservatives" stuff, I think you've lost your mind if you call yourself a conservative and support government funding of an arts center because "Better facilities brings better performers on a regular basis which raises up Lafayette as a place where "something is always goin on" You should read Edmund Burke. - ragin_cajun Fri, 23 Jul 2010 08:29:11 +0100 http://www.theind.com/re/6600-getting-it#comment-9090 To Dot -- if the ultimate justification of spending government funds is it must benefit "me" personally, then why pave Gloria Switch Road since I never use it? Gravel is good enough. Why replace the Surrey Street Bridge? I don't go that way. Let Sharon Moss replace it if she wants people to come buy Mercedes and BMWs. Right? To Ragin, I agree with the point of reducing spending. If I had even a summary of the budget I'm sure I could find some good stuff to cut. But a quick Google search didn't produce that and I don't have time to spend looking for it right now. I think you are on the right track but you want to impose an anti-federal spending template onto local government ... a Republican Nihilism, if you will. And that is fine, that is a perfectly acceptable political point of view. But the heart of that philosophy isn't anti arts center, it's anti government funding anything except police and maybe roads. Ragin, as conservatives, we were/are supposed to be for what? More local control over spending/rights rather than ceding power and control to a federal government in Washington. Isn't that what this is? This isn't the feds spending money from Lafayette to redistribute to crack addicts in Cleveland and Baltimore. It is Lafayette specnding Lafayette dollars on a Lafayette project. It is conservatism at work even if you don't like the project. And I don't see how you jump from "Lafayette has inefficient licensing and permitting" to .. so we shouldn't fund the arts center. I seriously doubt the arts center issue has taken up much, if any, of the mayor's time. All the best, Soop - Soop Thu, 22 Jul 2010 20:11:35 +0100 http://www.theind.com/re/6600-getting-it#comment-9056 Dot Organism--" you end up with anything being justified" That's it! LUS Fiber pushed the envelope, and now this seems like it's no big deal. As long as there's some possible conceivable return that MIGHT be realized, LCG should "invest". Soop-- What are the effects of high taxes and out of control spending? Businesses already try to locate out of the city limits today. Businesses already complain that Lafayette has inefficient licensing and permitting. Fixing that would be a better, and more appropriate, use of the administration's time. May not be as fun, but certainly more effective. But if you think it's such a great idea, then tell us all what program you would cut in order to have this "vibrant cultural sector"? This whole debate is backwards. - ragin_cajun Thu, 22 Jul 2010 09:11:43 +0100 http://www.theind.com/re/6600-getting-it#comment-9055 written by Soop , July 22, 2010 "having a vibrant cultural sector is part of the numerous factors that draw businesses in and in turn draw new people to the area. Studies have proven this. Anecdotal evidence proves this." ------------------------- Highly debatable. Besides, do we want government culture? "Those intangibles may not be a draw to you but they are a draw to others." ----------------------------- So what. Why should I pay for other peoples pleasure? "In my opinion, this is a huge return on investment" ------------------------------- Questionable and subjective, especially when only supported by opinion. - Dot Organism Thu, 22 Jul 2010 09:10:30 +0100 http://www.theind.com/re/6600-getting-it#comment-9052 written by Walter Pierce "Thank you for that valuable contribution" -------------------- Thanks. Nevertheless, when you open the public purse to spending for subjective concepts (i.e. art), and especially limited appealed, you end up with anything being justified. Roads, police, courts, are reasonable roles for government but the arts are not. - Dot Organism Thu, 22 Jul 2010 07:39:28 +0100 http://www.theind.com/re/6600-getting-it#comment-9051 Regardless of whether you ever plan to set foot in the new Arts Center, this is about an investment in Lafayette. Whether you feel this is a liberal, artsy-fartsy organization or not, having a vibrant cultural sector is part of the numerous factors that draw businesses in and in turn draw new people to the area. Studies have proven this. Anecdotal evidence proves this. Arguing this will have no effect on you is like the folks who argue the loss of gulf drilling will have no effect on them. While I will grant you the effect of gulf drilling is much easier to see than the effect of an arts center (because there will be no mud companies or service companies popping up on the roads leading to the new center), arguing there is no effect is just as absurd. Better facilities brings better performers on a regular basis which raises up Lafayette as a place where "something is always goin on" as a friend of mine from out of town put it. Those intangibles may not be a draw to you but they are a draw to others. In my opinion, this is a huge return on investment -- even if it does make those artsy-fartsy liberal hippies happy. All the best, Soop - Soop Thu, 22 Jul 2010 07:36:56 +0100