News -> INDReporter MON, NOV 8 8:41AM by Leslie Turk

Advocate: spending cuts not only option

Monday's Advocate makes the case for why Gov. Bobby Jindal needs to reconsider his opposition two years ago to an increase in so-called sin taxes.

Facing an unbalanced budget for fiscal year ended June 30, the first in a decade, the Jindal administration's mantra has been cut, cut, cut. And as is typically the case, the poor are disproportionately affected -- mainly in health care and family services. The cuts have been equally devastating to higher ed. And there are more to come for both, the paper notes, commenting on Jindal's unwillingness to budge on proposed increases in cigarette and tobacco taxes (and how about alcohol?):

Jindal should reconsider. An increase in “sin” taxes would be more popular than just about any alternative. Most states have taken “a more balanced approach” with revenue and cuts to deal with recession shortfalls, according to Edward Ashworth, head of the Louisiana Budget Project, which studies fiscal issues.
It’s not balanced to cut vital services over and over again, while leaving — in political terms — easy money on the table.

In other words, Gov. Jindal, stay home and start looking at some user taxes. Get creative. 

Read the editorial here.



Comments (24)add
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written by ragin_cajun , November 08, 2010 - 03:21 pm
The Advertiser's position, as stated here (and I hope properly quoted), is morally indefensible. The reasons the paper gives to support its position are weak, irrational, and inconsistent.

The paper claims that an increase in "sin" taxes would be more "popular". But, the question is whether it would be right. The paper bewails the questionable "fact" that these spending cuts disproportionately affect the poor. Several paragraphs later, the paper proposes as a solution a tax that disproportionately affects a small group of taxpayers. So it's wrong to cut services to this group, but it's OK to take money from that group? Why should I be more sympathetic to one group than the other? And what should I think of a newspaper that suggests that I should be?

There is, predictably, no moral reasoning given for this position, only that it would be more "popular". Many things are, and have in our history, been "popular" with voters but morally reprehensible. The same breach of rational discourse is committed again, when the paper says "most states have taken "a more balanced approach"". So what? Most states are fiscally irresponsible, too. Would the Advocate now like to defend the fiscal positions of "most states" over the last 5-10 years? Probably not.

The paper discusses Governor Jindal's "knee-jerk opposition to any and all taxes". I think Jindal's opposition to higher taxes is actually an ideological opposition, one that he has explained, campaigned on, and voters have approved. Jindal has explained his OPPOSITION to higher taxes much more effectively than the Advocate has explained their SUPPORT for higher taxes in this editorial. So, who's knee is really jerking here?


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written by Leslie Turk , November 08, 2010 - 04:16 pm
ragin_cajun, it's The Advocate. Not the Advertiser. I edited your post.
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written by ragin_cajun , November 08, 2010 - 04:31 pm
Thanks, Leslie....
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written by Farrow , November 08, 2010 - 06:46 pm
Bring back the Stelley Tax Plan! La. Senator Nevers is making this suggestion. I don't mind paying higher taxes if it means saving higher education and healthcare from more devastating cuts. See the Independent's previous article on this:

http://www.theind.com/news/7134-nevers-bring-stelly-plan-back
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written by ragin_cajun , November 08, 2010 - 07:09 pm
" I don't mind paying higher taxes if it means saving higher education and healthcare from more devastating cuts. "

You have every right to pay more if you want to support those causes. I don't think the state would return your overpayment. You could also donate directly to schools, hospitals, and charities that help the poor.

What you have NO right to do is mandate that your fellow citizens pay more just because YOU think they should. You have no right to spend your neighbors' money, no matter how just your cause.
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written by RCajunrunner , November 08, 2010 - 08:34 pm
Wow. Still no suggestion/admission from the Advocate or IND that Louisiana may simply have too many 4 year public universities for the state's taxpayers to effectively support.

Do you think if we raised taxes in tabacco and alcohol, as well as re-implemented Stelly, that Higher Education will never have funding issues again?

As long as we continue this absurd mentality that every community in Louisiana is entitled to its own university, and that every university is entitled to as many under-grad and graduate programs as it wishes, then LA taxpayers will ALWAYS be fighting an uphill battle to fund Higher Ed.
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written by NORTHSIDIAN SHOTGUN , November 08, 2010 - 10:09 pm
ragin_cajun, 75 years ago the state did'nt have enough revenue to support education, and the pie was chopped up and taxes were increased, 60 years ago students received a BIG CHIEF TABLET AND TWO YELLOW PENCILS AND THOSE STUDENTS WITH NO FATHER AT HOME HAD THEIR SCHOOL LUNCH PROVIDED FREE !
Everyone was HAPPY, EXCEPT THE POLITICIANS for they were stymied.... realizing that the last tax increase which was intended to go to education was lost in the shuffle, and the Big Chief Tablets and two Yellow Pencils ended up in the Chinese black market. Noone was happy. Now in between elections the government wants to raise taxes except for Jindal. He knows that he could raise taxes and the poor would'nt suffer because they never pay taxes, but to do so he would be shooting himself in the foot, with the national electionals forthcoming, and he will also need both feet to stump the campaign trail for the Presidency.
Also, you know that the Advertiser nevah, nevah, offers any solid sensible solution on any subject.
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written by Morrow , November 09, 2010 - 10:24 am
Education in Louisiana is top heavy, period. Higher Ed in Louisiana can be cut even more than what is occuring. CLOSE UP SOME OF THOSE LSU @ Mamou schools. Reconcile some of those campuses. No? Too many jobs, retirements on the line. When those cuts are made, when Ed is cut to the bone, when top heavy administration is cut, I'll support taxation for education. There's so much waste and duplication. The public is aware now. Maybe students are too busy trying to survive to know, but those of us who pay the taxes are beginning to realize.
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written by NORTHSIDIAN SHOTGUN , November 09, 2010 - 01:40 pm
Right on Ms. Turk, it is indeed the advocate not the advertiser that offers a solution to aid higher education, but that dog can't hunt, and that hay burner was shot a long time ago more than once, he would'nt run, so what now.
This state has always had the advocate pushing for upping taxes , i think they have a contract with the Baton Rouge State Capitol to promote taxes, like druggie couillion rush limbaloney, who has a contract with the party to demean and low-rate the opposition.
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written by NORTHSIDIAN SHOTGUN , November 09, 2010 - 02:02 pm
Oh, taxes is not the answer, lessening spending, cutting politicians pork projects, higher education educators paid a more realistic salary, retirement packages give away, have soared above inflation cost into a 20 year future increase cost of living for retiring educators and booted politico's after serving 3-4 terms. Lets ask the advocate to explain why the tax payers should fund life-long health insurance for retiring and booted out politico's, this stupid perk is really costing the tax payers beau coup dinero, and the average joe in the work force cannot retire or collect social security until he has worked 40-50 years, and he'll be lucky to be able to pay for his health insurance, yeah something is desperately wrong with this picture and it not just the scene, this picture actually stinks.
"TAXES NON, I SAY HELLO NO TO TAXES, HEAR THAT JINDAL, PROTECT YOUR VOTES.
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written by Unempirical Observer , November 09, 2010 - 10:45 pm
Ahh...
I think John Neely Kennedy the State Treasurer proposed a series of actions that would help with our budgeting problems without putting serious damage to higher education funding.

The rest of these couillions are going to split hairs arguing about philosophy, truth is, all y'all can't live in a libertarian fantasyland where you all get to be billionaires and keep all your so-called hard earned money and tightly decide what "charities" to give it to in the furtherance of y'alls partisanized belief systems on the role of gov't. While at it, I'm sure those hard-core libertarians like the Koch Bros. would go on funding think-tanks and biased nonsense who have an interest in destroying the world and distorting climate science and aiding and abetting the mass-media in their race to the bottom with the American public in our lowest common denominator world. Alright, just keep on keepin on, measure everything in terms of empirical value, and forget the intrinsic value of anything.
I can't wait to you guys start putting prices on pretty flowers, bambis, and nice views. Would you put prices on our cypress forests and oak lined bayous...
Oh wait, nevermind, we have.
Just like we put a price on the head of our kids. No Child Left Behind. Test scores, test scores test scores.

Man, we're all robots. Consuming, garbage making robots.

Buy Buy Buy, it's the "IN" thing to do.

Well guys and gals, Louisiana is still a backwards state. Oil/Gas/ChemRefining runs our day to day. We bend over backward to dump on ourselves.

Now you say we have too many schools.
LSU@Mamou (Eunice) prepares students for LSU A&M. LSU-UNO used to do this too, but it had a good rap as a standalone school. Had as many students as UL, as does SELU.
McNeese and Nicholls used to be Junior Colleges.....
LSU-A used to be like LSU-E, that's still a sore spot.
Other than that, there is NW of LA and ULM, LaTech and Grambling and Southern.

Which ones y'all wanna cut out? Which to revert to JC status?

UL sure as hell ain't gonna take this cut sitting down. That's for sure.

RC, sorry you are wrong. Your fellow citizens do have every right to tax you, and tax me, and tax the man behind the tree.
I'm glad you aren't in charge. I find some common ground with you sometimes, but you're wrong here. You aren't the only one getting taxed. We're all paying one way or another. We all have needs to meet, and I'm so sure you're the biggest victim in this pity-party of overzealous taxation and regulation.

In fact, if you're so worried about your tax liabilities, you should get out of the day-wage laborer category and become part of the investor-class, spend all your days trading securities. Taxes are less there than on wage-income.
Unless of course, you're a master of the tax deduction, credit and loophole game we all play.
In which case, if we flattened the tax and eliminated the games, you'd probably be paying more.
So how would that help?

I'm firmly against putting user fees on the common man, and privatizing everything for the ideology's sake of doing it. Some things are meant to be public responsibility.

I know I won't convince you, but I'll just say what I have to say anyway. Really, I don't know why I waste my time participating on these boards.
Time to go find people that are more open to a conjoined society, instead of all this brash frontiersman attitude of nonsense that seems prevalent around here.
Bah-Humbug!
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written by ragin_cajun , November 10, 2010 - 02:41 am
Unempirical Observer --

"Man, we're all robots. Consuming, garbage making robots." Not a very high opinion of humanity. Not surprising that you feel entitled to my labor when you look at me like that.

You wrote it, you must believe it. You see a world where less than human "robots" all around you produce garbage. And they consume.

So, in this dystopia that you describe, who produces the things that the robots consume? Angry libertarian day-laborers? Some benevolent Central Committe of bureaucrats?

This is really interesting. Tell us more....
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written by Resident , November 10, 2010 - 08:36 pm
U.O., your time is not wasted here. I appreciate your heartfelt rant, even though it cannot be monetized, packaged and sold.
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written by Unempirical Observer , November 10, 2010 - 11:14 pm
Dude, {and I say dude, cause I just can't imagine a woman being in a state of rage while being a cajun at the same time}
the thing I'm trying to draw attention to is the fact that the system is cultivating us to be drone workers, button pushing test taking clowns. Overall I feel and then I hold myself informed at least on perception, that education is preparing students not to be citizens, but to be worker-consumers of life.

Yes we need trade skills and citizen skills and skills of intellect. We also need skills of being. Yes, I said the skill of being. 'Being' kinda runs counter to all this empiricism that reduces everything deducible into parts, pieces, numbers, facts and figures and dollars.

I believe that peoples faith backgrounds, and family life, and community life serve to develop our skill of being. Obviously, schooling is one part of this, as is the work we do. If our schooling doesn't help prepare us for this, we are reliant upon family and faith to do so, and sadly more and more people are apart from those faith backgrounds or they are wholly inadequately served by family life.

I have to resist the urges all the time from the culture all the time that would pull me back down into this roboticism. It happens from time to time and it seems that understanding that and not holding out for perfection is the only way to keep perspective and keep engaging with our world.

We're all entitled to your labor, and to mine, and to their's, his, hers, them over there, these right here next door and so forth. It's not like we just want to give it away wastefully, or in some dogmatic class war. It is for real good, ensuring the development of a just and stable society.
If the big dogs that hold the real power were truly paying their fair due, you and I would not be left with the bill.

So for a topic change, how does everyone feel about the new TIF districts being proposed in Lafayette?
Looks like they're going to get the 1% sales tax raise without a public vote, but here's the rub, that revenue can't be used to support your neighborhood streets, ditches and so forth. It will be dedicated to the "district" it was generated within.
Wow, doesn't that sound like further balkanization of Lafayette City and Parish?
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written by ragin_cajun , November 11, 2010 - 01:42 am
"We're all entitled to your labor, and to mine, and to their's, his, hers, them over there, these right here next door and so forth. "

You're a collectivist. You believe the rights of the group trump those of the individual. What you believe is fundamentally opposed to freedom and individual liberty.

"It's not like we just want to give it away wastefully, or in some dogmatic class war. It is for real good, ensuring the development of a just and stable society. " -- You just wrote what every tyrrant in human history has said. Anyone who has ever read, or seen, what Mao, Trotsky or Lenin do to PEOPLE would be chilled to the bone reading what you wrote here today.

Your comments are echoes from the very darkest days of human history.





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written by Resident , November 11, 2010 - 01:08 pm
Good lord, ragin, this isn't the Sean Hannity show. You take one or two sentences out of the context of U.O.'s entire postings and use them to construct some frightening scenario, complete with scary dropping of names from history. It's that mischaracterization of yours again.

There are some excellent reflections on society in there about a system that seems to be a subtle reflection of Huxley's Brave New World...cultivating us to be perpetually in debt, obsessed with quantification and mindless consumption, bombarded by infotainment propaganda, drifting away from free thought and originality.

If you can't appreciate that for being too busy constructing your spin, then you have my sympathy.
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written by ragin_cajun , November 11, 2010 - 04:30 pm
Resident --

I have given UO credit where it is due, as you well know, following your critique of his remarks under the other article about Southern White Dem's just yesterday.

Things are what they are, words mean what they say, and all your relativist drivel to the contrary does not change the OBJECTIVE FACTS of REALITY. I've mischaracterized nothing. Your "feeling", or "perception" that it is so does not make it so. If you find error in my analysis, then name it. If you can support some other conclusion, then do so.

UO is a collectivist. He probably has no problem with that, or with me saying it. Why do you?




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written by Resident , November 11, 2010 - 06:20 pm
I have a problem with your suggesting that those two sentences are tantamount to the actions of violent dictators and "the darkest days of our past." That's your error. Spare us these absurdities and we'll take you more seriously.
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written by ragin_cajun , November 11, 2010 - 06:56 pm
I have a problem with you misstating my position. Tantamount means "equivalent in seriousness" or "equivalent in value". What I said is that UO's philosophy is the same as all the tyrrants in history, he has echoed what they have said, and that it is chilling. That is completely accurate.

UO's WORDS are not tantamount to the ACTIONS of the dictators mentioned, which is EXACTLY how YOU misstated my position. Are you intentionally exaggerating my position? Do you not fully understand what tantamount means? Are did you not read my words as carefully as I wrote them?
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written by Unempirical Observer , November 11, 2010 - 07:51 pm
Yeeeah, I put a higher priority on community liberty than individual liberty.
I'm sympathetic to Communitarianism and Libertarian Socialist thought. Most anarchism derives from that latter movement.

I'm not totally fond of classical Liberalism, which is what I'm inferring the ragin cajun supports. It's unrealistic to think of human beings as asocial creatures.
There are some humans that do live sufficiently asocial lives, that is part of our biological diversity of the human mind. Most of us are social creatures by contrast and have never been the stoic frontiersman. We live in a web of relationships, and if imperfectly at times in the past, we have shared provisions with each other, traded labor with each other, and as our societies became more numerously populated, found the ability to maintain community functions less possible to meet contemporary challenges, and of course, when the power of the private sphere rose after the Enlightenment, the public sphere rose in its pervasivity to match and balance. The natural world if replete with examples of "balancing." The systems of man do the same thing.

If science and technology has put us on a path to increase machine power, increased productivity and profit concentration, then it's only to be expected that libertarian individuals are unequal partners in this equation.
That is why Labor Unions arose.
The New Deal and Great Society programs arose to try to set that equation right. They may have worked imperfectly as they were crafted imperfectly out of compromise, and our saving grace is that in America, nothing is forever and we do go back and change laws, tweak programs and trying to do the best good for all.
I don't really think achieving the best good for all is possible now. The power of moneyed interest groups are far too great.
To come back to the subject of Ms. Turk's posting: depleting funding for higher education will not be a panacea of efficiency destined to improve the lot of our state. Without education for education's sake, our state will soon amend from this historical interlude and resume its course as the banana republic plantation economy we have been.
I fear that true change will only happen when our natural resources have been depleted, our coast washed away. At that time, we will have no choice but to see the common collective responsibility amongst ourselves to bind together rather than continuing this argumentation.
But then, being unprepared for such eventualities, perhaps we shall instead revert to the law of jungle. Can I say Haiti? I hope that isn't a red herring or a code word.
Oh wait...there is no jungle or rainforest left in Haiti. Survivalism without knowledge and overpopulation has seen to it that resource depletion has ravaged their society.

To close again, the other one thing I do know, is that any change that can be made will not be successful if it occurs radically all at once. The mature population cannot handle such a level of adjustment, and without their support, the society probably won't be able to let go of attachment to the previous order. I mean, look all around you the past 10 years, and the problems that have confronted this country, and ask when our adherence to our status quo has not ill-served our country in foreign relations, economic affairs, energy problems and so forth. There were always better solutions out there. Thinking can be a dogmatic exercise (not the least of which is elementary and secondary education not helping so much with currently.) Orienting one's self to unfamiliar ideas and systems does take time to become accustomed to. Children and young folks are more flexible in general if presented the possibilities and allowed to engage in the practice and examination of those.

Change will come whether we wish for it or not, the best I hope is that we become practitioners of alternatives so all our society's eggs aren't left dropped in one basket.
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written by Resident , November 12, 2010 - 01:08 pm
Equating two sentences with entire philosophies of violent dictators is hyperbole and a mistake, and a common distraction tactic of right-wing spinsters. U.O. seemed to be describing a normal system of taxation and public spending, although in terms probably meant to get you riled up.

And actually, ragin, I'm more afraid of your philosophy than U.O.'s. After all, you said a few days ago that people who don't own property should not be allowed to vote. Denying people the right to participate in democracy seems to be antithetical to freedom and liberty, eh?

Now, I'll refrain from slippery slopes that you're so fond of, although it would be entertaining to say at this point that requiring voters to own land is just two steps away from the backwards state of democracy we had 200 years ago.

And look, I didn't even use any "isms" or "ists".
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written by ragin_cajun , November 12, 2010 - 05:47 pm
Resident --

"Equating two sentences with entire philosophies of violent dictators is hyperbole and a mistake" You already said that, and I already responded. You simply saying it again changes neither the facts, nor my position.

" I'm more afraid of your philosophy than U.O.'s." I knew that without you telling me. The question is -- Why?

"you said a few days ago that people who don't own property should not be allowed to vote" Once AGAIN, you read nowhere near as carefully as I write. What I said is that they shouldn't be allowed to vote to RAISE PROPERTY TAXES. This comes from the very old (Anciet Greece) problem of unlimited democracy. That same problem is often cited in attacks against Libertarianism and Anarchism. You might have used it, too. deTocqueville called it "tyrrany of the majority". Logicians call it "argumentum ad populum". You can read about them, then you'll better understand what I meant and why that's valid.

Basically, what's wrong is wrong (morally), and the sanction of a majority of voters does not make it right, which I said in my very first comment on this article at the bottom of the page. If a majority of people don't own real estate, they will short-sightedly vote to raise property taxes on the minority who do own property. that is tyrrany of the majority. Earlier in our country's history, there was a requirement to own property because most people knew about Greece's problem with unlimited democracy from reading Socrates/Plato/Aristotle, and didn't want to be victimized in that way. Problem is, it's hard to raise taxes, and people quit reading Greek philosophers, so the property requirement fell by the way. Another example of this is slavery in the US. Majority of voters at one time supported that, too. That's why there's a Constitution in the US--to safeguard individuals' freedom from the majority/collective/government.

We have this very same problem with Democracy in US foreign policy. We want democracy in Palestine, but don't like when the majority elect a depraved group of terrorists to run the place...Hamas. The majority is not automatically right.

What else....my use of "isms". I read alot of history and philosophy, and I think alot about the thoughts and beliefs of others. Language is all about contracting complicated things, like belief systems and worldviews, into a single word so that knowledgeable people can discuss them efficiently. My use of of these words is not demagoguery, it is efficient use of language. What makes the difference is that I use the "ism", then point to why that term is applicable, and usually describe what the term means very quickly after I use it. Demagogues and "spinsters" don't do that.








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written by Resident , November 15, 2010 - 12:37 pm
"Once AGAIN, you read nowhere near as carefully as I write. What I said is that they shouldn't be allowed to vote to RAISE PROPERTY TAXES."

Nope, you said people who don't own property should not be allowed to vote, then you said (to paraphrase) especially if it involved raising property taxes.

I read very carefully, thank you very much, and I read a lot of history and philosophy too. I suspect that your list is very selective (maybe suggestions from an ideological organization?) judging by the extreme rigidity in your beliefs.
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written by ragin_cajun , November 16, 2010 - 02:58 am
Resident --

I stand corrected. After an hour of searching, I found the post your talking about. To save time in the future, could you paste a link for me?

Since you asked in the other article, and it's still on your mind now, lemme make my position on this as clear as I can. I think that voters with no skin in the game should have no right to vote in politicians that could decide against those who DO have skin in the game.

As I said in the other article, "Why should a class of people who own no property be able to vote to raise property taxes on those who do own property?"



Also, why should a class of people who have no income be able to vote to raise income taxes on those who earn an income?

Why should those who RECEIVE government benefits be able to vote to increase those benefits?

As for your assessment of my reading list....."I suspect that your list is very selective (maybe suggestions from an ideological organization?) " So in the post right below that, I'm talking about ancient Greece, Aristotle/Plato/Socrates, deTocqueville, and rules of logic....if you know of an "ideological organization" with a required reading list like that, let me know. Seriously.

Poste your response to newer articles, OK?
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