News -> INDReporter TUE, JUL 5 11:21AM by Walter Pierce

Jindal’s bizarro fiscal philosophy displayed in veto

The need for proof that Gov. Bobby Jindal jigs to the most extreme time signature of the his party’s anti-tax ensemble long ago ended, at least as the governor would have it. But to remind us great unwashed that it’s all a dog and pony show designed to buttress his national ambitions, Jindal recently displayed a dollop of fiscal sanity in vetoing on Friday Senate Bill 21, which would have exempted bottled water — carbonated water, flavored water, mineral water, vitamin water and plain, old water water, which is commonly tapped from the municipal water supplies of other cities — from the state sales and use tax.

In his veto message of the bill by state Sen. Neil Riser, R-Columbia, Jindal notes that the “exemption would result in a state revenue loss of $8.3 million in the upcoming fiscal year, and a total state revenue loss of $52.7 million over the next five years. Water delivered to the home through pipes is already exempt from sales tax. I am concerned this could cause our budget for the upcoming year to be out of balance.”

Bravo, governor. With apologies to our friends in Broussard’s Shenandoah Estates, where “crap from the tap” is a daily affair, Riser’s legislation was ill-conceived, not just from a state revenue perspective: Bottled water is one of the most environmentally destructive products in the marketplace. Exempting it from the state sales and use tax — essentially encouraging its consumption and the attendant spike in virtually indestructible plastic bottles going into landfills, not to mention (but I will) the increased rise in greenhouse gas emissions from transporting a commodity that in most communities is nearly free and proven safe from the tap — is a bad idea that deserved Jindal’s veto.

But square the governor’s sensible, post-session veto of Riser’s bill with his in-session veto of House Bill 591 by Rep. Harold Ritchie, D-Bogalusa. HB 591 reauthorized a 4-cent state cigarette tax, and Jindal made much ado about a tax renewal being, in his opinion, a tax hike. Ritchie pulled a brilliant parliamentary move after the House chickened out of overriding Jindal’s veto by attaching it to an unrelated senate bill, but Jindal’s grandstanding was widely derided among both parties and in newspaper editorial pages, although it undoubtedly endeared him to the no-nothing element of his GOP base.

That 4-cent cigarette tax generates $12 million annually — almost 50 percent more than the bottled water tax the governor elected to maintain with his veto pen. What’s more, the cigarette tax was earmarked for health care. As the governor emphasizes in his veto message for SB 21, “It is important that we protect scarce resources for priorities like health care and higher education.”

Jindal’s taxation schizophrenia came to our attention via dark horse gubernatorial candidate Tara Hollis, a north Louisiana Democrat, who called it “messed up,” among other things, in a press release issued Sunday.

Considering the two vetoes together, it’s hard to make a case that our governor is a model of consistency: By vetoing Ritchie’s bill, had he been successful, the governor would have lowered the price of a pack of cigarettes. By vetoing Riser’s bill, the governor maintains the tax on bottled water. Put another way, on the one hand he used his veto to lower a tax; on the other he used his veto to prevent the lowering of a tax.

Could it be that vetoing Ritchie’s bill during the session got a lot of press and helped burnish Jindal’s anti-tax bona fides, while vetoing Riser’s bill post-session — one among 14 vetoes the governor issued on Thursday and Friday of last week — flew beneath the radar? Or is it simply safe to assume in terms of the Louisiana governor's office the cigarette lobby is bigger than the bottled water lobby?


Walter Pierce
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Comments (23)add
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written by Colon Flow , July 05, 2011 - 06:19 pm
"Bottled water is one of the most environmentally destructive products in the marketplace."
-----------------

But Walter, bottled water is big in Europe and don't you and your
socialist friends look up to Europe?
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written by Walter Pierce , July 05, 2011 - 06:27 pm
Actually, Colon Flow, we look east to Europe.
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written by ragin_cajun , July 05, 2011 - 06:42 pm
" Bottled water is one of the most environmentally destructive products in the marketplace." That's completely ridiculuos, Walter. You really need to think that through a little more.

"the increased rise in greenhouse gas emissions from transporting a commodity that in most communities is nearly free and proven safe from the tap" Global Warming is every bit as crazy as Intelligent Design, living off the grid, and hoarding gold.

I think I'll add to that list of examples of modern mass hysteria the rabid obsession with Bobby Jindal. What is this, like Bush hysteria for the local market, Walter? Between you, Alford, and Moon Griffon, it's a twice daily dose of anti-Jindal propaganda.

I'm no great fan of Jindal, but when I compare him to the true idiots we've had in the Governor's mansion in my lifetime, I think we should all just take a big deep breath and try to relax. Think about it...would you really prefer Blanco, Foster, Edwards, Roemer or Treen? Seriously.


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written by Walter Pierce , July 05, 2011 - 06:52 pm
ragin, I knew you'd jump at this one.
Global warming is mass hysteria? Rising global temperatures is established scientific fact. The controversy is over whether humans are contributing to it.
I'll cast my lot with the scientists, many of whom are Nobel laureates in the sciences, who believe there's a causal link between greenhouse gas emissions from humans and the rising temperatures. You're welcome to cast yours with the flat-earthers.
I wonder though: Does the tin foil cap EVER get uncomfortable?

...
written by ragin_cajun , July 05, 2011 - 08:13 pm
" Does the tin foil cap EVER get uncomfortable?"

I don't know, Walter. YOU tell ME. I don't subscribe to crackpot theories like global warming/the coming ice age, I don't believe in economic conspiracies, and I don't structure my worldview around odd mixtures of Utopian fantasy and dystopian class-warfare delusion. Those animate YOUR writing, not mine. So if you're looking for insight into the long-term maintenance of tin foil caps...er, berets in your case I suppose....I'm the wrong person to ask. But, I'm curious....is it suddenly too small for your head?

Face it, man. Liberal causes celebres are every bit as absurd as Conservative causes celebres. Both sides have them, and it does none of us any good to perpetuate them.

If you insist on defending them, be careful with this whole idea of scientific unanimity and "Nobel laureates say"....it's just fraught with fallacy on many different levels.

If you believe in global warming/climate change/whatever the PC term is this year, then just state what you believe, and why you believe it. You may win converts. But to say "I believe it because those guys over there believe it"....that's not too convincing, now, is it?


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written by the original northsidian , July 05, 2011 - 08:39 pm
Walter, there is a man who walks on Moss St. with a DUCT TAPE HAT. Maybe he is the one they call ragin_cajun.
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written by Michael DeVault , July 05, 2011 - 08:50 pm
Unfortunately Walter is correct. Bottled water is incredibly expensive to bottle, transport and stock. It has a shorter shelf-life than processed Tap Water and it undergoes no oversight as to its contents. Tap water is not only "safe" -- bottled water is not tested for impurities, it is not monitored for quality, and is frequently shown to contain harmful levels of substances we probably shouldn't be drinking.

Aside from that, the plastics used have a lasting and damaging effect on the environment. In the United States alone, we consume enough bottles of water to stretch 4 times around the planet *each year*. To put it another way, we fill a landfill the size of the state of Vermont with plastic bottles once every three years.

Tax the hell out of it and maybe people will grow some sense.
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written by Walter Pierce , July 05, 2011 - 09:02 pm
We live in an age of specialization, ragin. I don't have an advanced degree in climate science. But those who do generally agree that human activity is contributing to the earth's rising temperatures.
Please turn your ire to Michael DeVault above. He, too, is infected with that hysteria known as common sense.
Sorry, Michael, I need you to babysit ragin_cajun for a while.
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written by Jason D. Faulk , July 05, 2011 - 09:06 pm
Walter, I appreciate the comments and perspective on bottled water as a potentially exemptable foodstuff or other necessity under the state 4% sales and use tax (much less the local 2% school board sales and use tax or the average 2% municipal sales and use tax). Particularly I am pleased to see our local media editorializing on reality of the pollution on land and in water, waste of natural and limited resources, the health hazards directly and indirectly due to leaching of estrogenic contaminants into the bottles and the ecosystem (which ends up in us, look no further than LUS's reported levels of pthalates in our water, under the EPA limits, but still higher than it should be.)

However in light of Shenandoah, hurricane preparedness, in a context to the occasional need for bottled water for hygienic purposes, the state could have offered a break on the tax rate for portions one-gallon and larger. Milk jug size bottles tend to be recycled, it's the small bottles estimated at 80% plus which never make it to a recycling facility, many of which don't even make it to a landfill.

In reality, with the growing water scarcity throughout the world (look at the record drought west of us in Texas), the enclosure of the public water commons by private water interests (see Vivendi and Bechtel), the failure by state actors to invest in shared public water infrastructure and the use of fiscal austerity mechanisms to repay public debts by privatizing water and increasing rates 400% + (see Cochabomba, Bolivia) we should definitely guard against incentivizing the market to privatize water resources, and this again makes all the bigger reason to fix the problems of public water in Lafayette Parish and for our leaders to demonstrate to our fellow citizens that public agencies can be trusted to follow through and help meet our needs. Failure to act on this front will induce a failing of confidence and a continuing rot of cynicism to take hold.

Langlinais, Durel, Jindal, Obama, all our leaders need to be active and start getting things done. They're elected to serve greater wholes and not one narrow faction. We can't afford to have them fail. Get the job done, fix the water!
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written by Hmm... , July 05, 2011 - 09:44 pm
Wow. Mrs. Hollis just wrote a piece about the hypocrisy of being in favor of taxing water, but not cigarettes... (which is where this story came from)

If anyone actually cares to read it, you can find it on her website:

http://tarahollis.com/forum/topics/jindals-tax-priorities-are-all

Where did all the tin foil hat stuff come from?
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written by ragin_cajun , July 05, 2011 - 10:03 pm
"I don't have an advanced degree in climate science. " You don't need one, Walter. Just a layman's familiarity with the controversies involved will suffice. And a little less abrasive and condescending tone would be nice, too.

But let me make my point this way. Do you think "the scientists" you're quoting would agree that a total global ban on bottled water would be effective in stopping global warming. No, they wouldn't. Would they agree that a total global ban on bottled water would have ANY effect AT ALL on global warming. No, they wouldn't, Walter. Would any of them propose that they could actually measure a decrease in GHG emissions if a global botled water ban were enacted? No, they wouldn't. Would they even all agree that greenhouse gases are causing climate change? No, they wouldn't.

The problem with your appeal to authority is that there is no real unanimity of opinion amongst scientists on this issue, and if there were, then that unanimity does not necessarily follow all the way down to something as specific as a bottled water ban, much less a tax to merely discourage bottled water use a little.

And stating it twice doesn't make it more valid, either. And invoking the "I have something else to do, can someone else make this sound reasonable FOR me" is just laughable.


Jason --

I think you make an excellent point about government and public trust. I wish the Independent would apply the same line of reasoning to public trust and the responsibility of the press. Blurring the lines between news and opinion to stir up controversy and increase hit count on websites ultimately deteriorates public confidence, too.

But hey...let's not get started down that road...Walter's got other things to do.
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written by Jeffrey Sadow , July 06, 2011 - 12:51 am
This piece is a nonstarter. Let's review: (1) the cigarette tax was temporary and due to expire, (2) thus, any effort to make it permanent constituted a new tax increase, (3) Jindal said he would not support any new taxes, (4) he did not say he was always in favor of tax cuts, (5) the bottled water legislation was a tax cut. No inconsistency here.

As for the myth of significant man-made global warming, one equation says it all: fudged data = hockey stick.
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written by Colon Flow , July 06, 2011 - 01:54 am
by Walter Pierce "Actually, we look east to Europe."
--------------------

Glad to hear you admit it. Here's a question: What is the increase rise in greenhouse gas emissions from all this blogging? Computers, internet, fiber, clouds, do they pollute more than bottled water? Please help Walter, should we unplug and go back to yelling?
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written by Colon Flow , July 06, 2011 - 01:58 am
by Walter Pierce "(See)Michael DeVault above. He, too, is infected with that hysteria known as common sense."
----------------------------

So, anyone who agrees with Walter has common sense, if you don't agree, then you have no common sense. Walter, did you find some stone tablets near a burning bush?
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written by ragin_cajun , July 06, 2011 - 02:53 am
"Colon Flow"

I laugh everytime I read that. That's funny, man.
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written by Resident , July 07, 2011 - 03:09 am
Ragin, it's not a fallacy (appeal to authority) to reference scientific experts in a field of science. I should have known you would dismiss anthropogenic warming as a "crackpot theory" and a liberal cause. It isn't either of those. It's a scientific consensus that unfortunately has been swallowed into politics, which I suppose could not be avoided since the issue has national and global ramifications. As for your line (borrowed from James Inhofe?) that "there is no real unanimity of opinion amongst scientists on this issue," if the National Science Academies of 32 nations does not suffice for you, see here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S...te_change

Anyway, yeah, good on Jindal for not going for the tax exemption on water bottles and further incentivizing our ludicrous consumption of the things and its environmental impact.
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written by Special K , July 07, 2011 - 03:28 am
Walter's comments on bottled water are right on the money. If you think he is wrong, the go do some research on your own and see what you find.
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written by ragin_cajun , July 07, 2011 - 02:37 pm
"Science relies on evidence, not opinion polls".

Resident --

Though tempted to invoke the "argumentum ad Walter" and say this is a waste of my time, I nonetheless took about 10 seconds to go to wikipedia and search for "scientists skeptical of global warming". voila! I've posted the link, but it'll get messed up like yours did...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ List_of_scientists_opposing_the_mainstream_scientific_a
ssessment_of_global_warming


I was very surprised at the number of scientists listed, almost 100 references in the write-up, just A LOT of dissenting opinion from A LOT of scientists on that page.

" National Science Academies of 32 nations" all agree? Since I've heard this exact factoid quoted about 3-4 times this year, it immediately stuck out in my mind. So let's look at some of these "32 nations"..
Ghana, Kenya, Nigeria, Madagascar, Indonesia, Mexico, Sudan, Senegal, Tanzania, Zambia, Zimbabwe...all places I'd like to go to college..:) I've spent some time in Indonesia, and I assure you, they wouldn't like your penchant for open debate and free thought one bit in their colleges...:)

Looks to me like appeals to "32 nations" are about as weak as appeals to "scientific unanimity".

But, Resident, perhaps you're on to something when you mention "scientific consensus that unfortunately has been swallowed into politics". As it turns out, some scientists are MUCH more concerned about politics corrupting science than they are about the Earth warming. But don't take it from me. Here's an article from scientists, professional researchers, with decades of experience in the area of grants/research/science. Read what THEY say about dissent among scientists and why/how it is silenced.

http://www.denverpost.com/harsanyi/ci_3899807

So here's a few points. First of all, citing "unanimity" is like using "all", "never", or "none" in a debate. It's an impossible position to defend. Second, the perspective is missing. Something as HUGE as the planet's climate and atmospheric carbon levels can be altered by even an outright ban on water bottles?! Absurd! So why would a mere tax lighten the "planetary carbon load"? Third -- you guys LOVE to snicker at arcane religious belief, but your adherence to secular dogma is every bit as irrational. At least religious people KNOW their beliefs are irrational, and separate that out in their minds by just admitting that their beliefs are not totally rational. THEY call it Faith. What do YOU call YOURS? Finally, if you don't like politics swallowing things up, then why are you unfailingly in support of government involvement in things? Government IS politics, and everytime you involve government or invoke a government "solution", you INVITE POLITICS.

Think about what you said, Resident...."I don't like politics swallowing this debate"....but...."government founded and funded science academies say it's true, so it must be true"....
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written by Resident , July 07, 2011 - 09:10 pm
Nicely written, ragin, with just the right amount of "almost-dismissal" and condescension. The usual mischaracterization, too. I don't appreciate your quoting something I did not actually say in that last paragraph.

The fact is, every science body in the world agrees that humans are contributing to observed global warming. That is what I go by, and if you don't, then sorry about that. Singling out the Science Academies of countries you don't like doesn't bring any weight to your position. There are many countries with very respectable NSA's in that list that you WOULD like to visit, n'est pas?

An opinion piece in a newspaper is hardly an earth-shattering rebuttal of a scientific consensus. And regarding lists of scientists, partisan advocacy groups routinely produce such "lists" with nary a climate scientist on it. Some have even produced lists with dead people on it, scientists who had no knowledge of signing, and so forth.

I'm more interested in what actual climatologists have to say, just like I'm interested in what astrophysicists have to say about space.

Your equivocation of trusting climatologists/science bodies with "adherence to secular dogma" and "faith" is amusing. I suppose I'll toss out the conclusion of geologists on plate tectonics, too.

I'm not surprised either that because a Science Academy gets government funding, it automatically is dismissed in your book. What a sad thing, really.
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written by ragin_cajun , July 07, 2011 - 10:50 pm
"An opinion piece in a newspaper " well, an interview with one of the most respected climate scientists in the world, actually. Looks like you didn't read it. As usual.

"Singling out the Science Academies of countries you don't like " Cutting your "list of 32" almost in half. I guess what I didn't make totally clear is the countries I singled out are notoriously corrupt and backward....the kinds of places where you need cash to get through customs. Think academics in places like that are open minded and honest?

"partisan advocacy groups routinely produce such "lists" with nary a climate scientist on it." maybe they do, but I don't. the list I produced was from wikipedia, the same site you used to bolster YOUR position in an earlier post, and it has MANY climate scientists on it. What are you TALKING about? Did you even read it?

"Your equivocation of trusting climatologists/science bodies with....faith". That was not what I was equivocating. Go back and read it again.

" because a Science Academy gets government funding, it automatically is dismissed in your book." Actually, what I was saying is that government automatically brings politics into science. That objection was also raised during Lincoln's presidency when the National Academy of Sciences was created.
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written by James Melancon , July 08, 2011 - 02:25 am
All this focus on bottled water but what about other liquids or packaging in general? Those pesky foam peanuts for example. Picking on bottled water is just another populist talking point for journalists.
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written by Resident , July 08, 2011 - 01:47 pm
"well, an interview with one of the most respected climate scientists in the world, actually."
You're referring to Pielke, and he was quoted in only one paragraph about how the media does a poor job of presenting climate science. I totally agree with that point.

"I guess what I didn't make totally clear is the countries I singled out are notoriously corrupt and backward....the kinds of places where you need cash to get through customs. Think academics in places like that are open minded and honest?"
Well, no, you listed 11 countries and that's not half of 32. And with the exception of Sudan, I don't think of the ones you listed as totally corrupt and backward. Xenophobia is only useful in Scrabble. I'd say the US government is full of corruption, too, but that's not even the point. You're just ASSUMING their Science Academies are bastions of corruption and backwardness, and their opinions are worthless. It's that mischaracterization of yours again.

"the list I produced was from wikipedia, the same site you used to bolster YOUR position in an earlier post, and it has MANY climate scientists on it."
Actually, there are only a couple of climatologists on there, with a lot more solid state physicists and geologists and so forth. Lindzen is questioning the accuracy of temperature predictions, not the entire consensus. There are solid rebuttals of Lindzen's claims at this site, which is run by actual climatologists. Just do a name search.
http://www.realclimate.org/
Search for Fred Singer, too, and you'll find the same. The few people who might actually know something about climate in your list are overwhelmingly outnumbered by climatologists who agree with the consensus, as well as every science body in the world and the vast majority of academic research institutions.

"That was not what I was equivocating. Go back and read it again."
Here is what you said:
"Third -- you guys LOVE to snicker at arcane religious belief, but your adherence to secular dogma is every bit as irrational. At least religious people KNOW their beliefs are irrational, and separate that out in their minds by just admitting that their beliefs are not totally rational. THEY call it Faith. What do YOU call YOURS?"
First of all, you blatantly mischaracterize my position by saying that I "snicker at arcane religious belief." Not true. I have no problem with religious folks and I'm friends with plenty of them. I take issue with the idea of Intelligent Design being taught in the science classroom. Then you say that I adhere to secular dogma, which I can only assume is my trust of the scientific consensus on global warming. You suggest this is a "faith." Is this not your position?

"Actually, what I was saying is that government automatically brings politics into science."
It has happened, mainly with agencies head by political appointees like the EPA. I suspect you don't know much about the NAS. Top scientists and scholars volunteer their time, and the governing council is elected by the members. It is MUCH more independent of politics than government agencies. If you're dismissing the NAS then you're dismissing many of the scientific advances we've made in the last 140 years.
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written by NORTHSIDIAN SHOTGUN , July 09, 2011 - 03:45 am
The couillions walking thru downtown with therir au naturale Perrier H2O remind me of the Arabs in Abu Dhabi walking the streets of Abu Dhabi with their personal cell phones up to their ear, ughing, ooghing, asging aukk, aukk, oquf,
fa-fa, hummus, potta, and when you check their phone....they have no service HAHAHAHAHA HA, like the trendy little boyscouts downtown laf, with their refilled plastic bottles trying to impress the Babymama's.
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